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Wednesday, December 7, 2011

Dialogue in December 2011 : Kazi Azizul Huq, Renee Leavy Kohn, Chief Rabbi David Rosen, Dr. Richard Benkin

We can not forget that during the First World War the Arab Beduin gangs led by the son of Sharif Hussein of Makkah helped the British to occupy Arab lands including the region known today as Israel and Palestine. The plain truth is that the British received money from the Jews to help the Jews return to their ancient homeland. The cunning British availed consent from the sons of Sharif Hussein as well as from Abdul Aziz bin Saud to the effect. The treacherous British helped Abdul Aziz bin Saud to oust Sharif Hussein from Hejaj and appeased the sons of Sharif Hussein by posting one in Baghdad and the other in Amman. Arabs lost all subsequent wars with Israel and now seeking justice under the guidance of the traitor British according to British treacherous standards and values. And the Palestine Authority today is almost an atheist entity.
· · 10 hours ago

    •  
      Renee Leavy Kohn
      That is basically how my father told us. "For 2000 years Muslims, Jews and Christians lived together in relative peace. Then the British came".


      The British received some money money from the Rothschild to buy land in Palestine, but the main reason that the British were all for the "Restoration of the Jews to Zion aka Zionism" was that they wanted to rid Europe of its Jewish population and bring about the Second Coming of Jesus Christ in the process.

      Ever since the Bible had begun to be translated into English starting in the 1380s under John Wycliffe, and under the influence of Martin Luther, the founder of the Protestant church who was also a proponent of the "common language" bible, there was a movement to restore the Jewish people to Zion as part of Protestant End Times theology.

      By the time that Pastor Wilhelm Hechler convinced Theodore Herzl (who himself had proposed mass baptism of the Jewish people as an answer to anti Semitism and whose own family converted to Christianity), to take Zionism to the secular and assimilated European Jews, the theology was well instilled in the religious beliefs of European Christians.

      Zionism was from its very beginning banned by the rabbis as heretical to Judaism.
      ==0==

      • I think, in the post-European Renaissance age of 'Nation States' the aspiration of the Bani Israel to have an independent polity is a legitimate and fair aspiration. And 'Zionism' could simply mean that fair and legitimate aspiration.

      ==0==

       
      • Renee Leavy Kohn Actually, Judaism forbids establishing a nation before the Messiah.

        During the Babylonian Diaspora right after the destruction of the First Temple, Rabbi Ze'ira asked Rabbi Yehudah if he is permitted to return to Eretz Israel.

        Rabbi Yehudah answered: Whoever ascends from Babylon to Eretz Israel transgresses a positive commandment. Only G - d decides about the end of the Babylonian Galut. Hence, He will give us a sign. It is absolutely forbidden to make up our own minds and rush back to Eretz Israel.

        Rabbi Ze'ira claimed that this law only applies to the Temple Kelim (dishes for the service) and not to the Jews. Rabbi Yehudah responds that immigration to Eretz Israel is prohibited and he quotes from Shir HaShirim 2:7:

        "I have adjured you, O daughters of Jerusalem, by gazelles or by hinds of the fileds etc. should you wake or rouse the love until it pleases".

        This teaches us metaphorically that we are bound by an oath not to ascend to Eretz Israel until the Final Redemption. Rabbi Ze'ira, however, interpreted the verse that the Jewish people should not converge upon Eretz Israel in a wall of force (which is what was done, so either way the State is forbidden by Jewish law).

        The "daughters of Jerusalem" are all Jewish generations. They received an oath from G - d not to rush the coming of the Moschiach before G-d makes the decision Himself.

        Like "gazelles and hinds" means that if the Jews break their oath before the time, they could be hunted like gazelles and hinds.

        Rabbi Yehudah presents the oath:

        1. The Jewish people should not converge upon Eretz Israel in a wall of force.

        2. The Jews should not rebel against the nations.

        3. G - d told the idolaters not to subjugate the Jewish people more than sufficient.

        You can find those three reasons three times in Shir HaShirim (2:7, 5:8 and 8:4).

        The Gemara in Ketubot 111a lists another three additional oaths:

        1. Jewish prophets should not reveal the exact time of the Ge'ulah.

        2. The Jews should not distance the end through their sins.

        3. The Jews should not reveal the secret to the idolaters.
        In fact there are secret calculations on the Jewish calendar but they are not to be revealed.

        The Gemara continues with the punishments for not keeping the oaths.

        G - d said to the Jewish people: "If you abide by the oath, it will be well and good for you, but if not, I will permit your flesh to be hunted by the idolaters as the gazelles and as the hinds of the field".

        In other words:
        The Jews have to live in the Diaspora until G - d makes His decision and brings the Moschiach. If we live in Israel we influence His decision and might be punished by Him. Our presence in the Holy Land could thus we break the oath and therefore, we deserve to be punished.

        Despite the oaths, many Chassidim and Mitnagdim (litvish) did not see a problem by settling in Israel because they did not plan a State of Israel but wanted to set up religious settlements which were to be ruled according to the Torah law. Furthermore, prayers are more accepted in Israel than in the Galut.

        But already the Baal Shem Tov emphazised the importance of living in Galut. Jews do have many tasks there and only by fulfilling them we can bring the Moschiach (also see Chassidut Rozhin and Rabbi Avraham Yehoshua Heshel of Apta). Those Chassidim who came to Israel 200 years ago, were simply fed up with suffering in one pogrom after the other in Eastern Europa. They finally wanted to live in peace.

        At the end of the last century however, political Zionism became more and more popular and the Chassidim started to fight the new secular ideas. Israel can only exist according to Torah law and not by secular law. As a counterpart to national religious and secular Zionism they founded the Agudat Israel and the Edah HaCharedit. Today the Agudah has five seats in the Knesset and includes groups such as Vishnitz, Belz, Gur and Litvishe Haredim. Although the members of the Agudat Israel are not necessarily Zionist, they think that it is important to be in the Knesset and not only let the secular rule.

        The Edah HaCharedit refuses any cooperation or recognition of the State of Israel. Edah is an umbrella organization for different chassidic groups such as Dushinsky, Toldot Aharon, Toldot Avraham Yitzchak, Satmar, Spinka, Breslov and also includes Litvishe groups such as Brisk and Mishkenot HaRoim.

        (Miriam Woelke wrote this explanation).

        http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/index.cfm
        www.jewsagainstzionism.com
        True Torah Jews is a non-profit organization of Orthodox Jews dedicated to infor...See More
         
        ==0==
        Tuesday at 7:55pm 
        Kazi Azizul Huq I agree to the view: Since Israel is in the Holy Land "Israel can only exist according to Torah law and not by secular law."
         
        ==0== 

      From: David Rosen <rosend@ajc.org>
      Date: Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 10:48 PM
      Subject: RE: Seeking you comment on a discussion in the Facebook social media
      To: Kazi Azizul Huq <kahuq@dhaka.net>




      Please see my comments in red.

      That is basically how my father told us. "For 2000 years Muslims, Jews and Christians lived together in relative peace. Then the British came".
      That is historically incorrect, There were plenty of conflicts between the communities, both under the Turks, before, and especially under Christian rule.


      The British received some money from the Rothschild to buy land in Palestine,
      What evidence is there for such a claim ? In fact if any rulers were paid money, it was to the Turks. However the Rothschilds essentially purchased land from Arab and Turk absentee landlords (effendis) for Jewish returnees to inhabit and develop.

      but the main reason that the British were all for the "Restoration of the Jews to Zion aka Zionism" ,was that they wanted to rid Europe of its Jewish population, and bring about the Second Coming of Jesus Christ in the process.
      Parts one and three of the above sentence are true with regards to a particular (and not a very large) portion of the British political and religious leadership; the second phrase is nonsense.


      Ever since the Bible had begun to be translated into English starting in the 1380s under John Wycliffe, and under the influence of Martin Luther, the founder of the Protestant church who was also a proponent of the "common language" bible, there was a movement to restore the Jewish people to Zion as part of Protestant End Times theology.
      Correct




      By the time that Pastor Wilhelm Hechler convinced Theodore Herzl (who himself had proposed mass baptism of the Jewish people as an answer to anti Semitism and whose own family converted to Christianity), to take Zionism to the secular and assimilated European Jews, the theology was well instilled in the religious beliefs of European Christians.
      Hechler did not convince Herzl. Herzl enlisted Hechler to help him obtain access to European Christian political leadership.


      Zionism was from its very beginning banned by the rabbis as heretical to Judaism
      It is true that some rabbis condemned Zionism because of its secular character, but there was already at the outset a strong  Religious Zionist movement and today the overwhelming majority of rabbis and religious Jews see Zionism simply as the political process to restore the Jewish people to its ancestral homeland in keeping with the Divine eternal promise.

      Chief Rabbi David Rosen,CBE,KSG,
      International Director of Interreligious Affairs, AJC
      tel:+972-2-6255281. fax:+972-2-6256527
      rosend@ajc.org   www.rabbidavidrosen.net  

      ==0==

      From: Dr. Richard L. Benkin <drrbenkin@comcast.net>
      Date: Tue, Dec 6, 2011 at 7:19 PM
      Subject: Re: Seeking your comment on a discussion in the Facebook social media
      To: Kazi Azizul Huq <kahuq@dhaka.net>



      I suppose my immediate question is:  What is the evidence for these grand assertions?
       
       
              1.    “The plain truth is that the British received money from the Jews to help the Jews return to their ancient homeland.”  How much money?  From whom?  Are you saying that all individual Jews are part of a single activity by a Jewish people?  Are you saying that was the determining factor in British policy?  Were there others?  For instance, there was a tremendous resurgence of Christian millenarianism among parts of the population that saw the Jews return to the Land of Israel to be a necessary step for the Second Coming of Jesus.
       
             2.    “For 2000 years, Muslims, Christians, and Jews lived in relative peace.  Then the British came.”  Are you unaware of anti-Jewish pogroms?  Are you saying legal dhimmitude is “relative peace”?
       
             3.    Herzl’s suggestion about mass conversion has been seen by reputable and knowledgeable scholars as tongue in cheek sarcasm; more marginal or agenda-driven advocates take it seriously.  His “family” did not convert, but only his son did (not an uncommon practice for Jews who otherwise were banned from almost all professions and non-marginal economic endeavors).
       
             4.    To say that Zionism was banned by “the rabbis” (that’s a funny concept—that all rabbis agree about things) is silly.  Yes, at one point people were afraid of the reaction to it.  Yes, there are marginal groups today who still oppose it (again, let me emphasize marginal).  And yes, when Zionism began picking up steam in the 18th and 19th century, the most religious rabbis saw it as heretical.  But in fact, rabbis have been part of most Zionist efforts for decades upon decades.  Moreover, the longing to return to Zion has been central in Jewish theology and liturgy and in the hearts and minds of the Jewish people for thousands of years.
       
      ==0==



       
      Renee Leavy Kohn  
      My father comes from a line of Moroccan Chief Rabbis and our family is documented in Morocco for 700 years.

      My mother is a great niece of the Imrei Emes. Hopefully this will shed a bit of light on the perspective that I was raised with.

      WADR, it would not surprise me that my father (until 120) would be coming from a different perspective than yours.

      My above statement about Rothschild was overly simplistic and for that I apologize. Please allow me to clarify.

      It is well documented in history that the Rothschilds made massive war loans to the British government and because of this gained considerable influence in British politics. On November 2nd, 1917, British Foreign Secretary Arthur James Balfour replied to a letter from Lord Rothschild, the head of the Zionist Federation in Great Britain dated July 18th. The letter included the final text of the Balfour Declaration, a document expressing British support for the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine.

      Additionally, it is a well known fact of history that the Rothschild family, Baron Benjamin (Edmond James) de Rothschild (1845-1934) embraced 12 settlements at all three levels of land redemption: purchase, reclamation and economically viable settlement. In 1900, Rothschild transferred the settlements, their agricultural enterprises, and 25,000 hectares of land to the Jewish Colonization Association (ICA, est. 1891), which he continued to support in various ways.


      In a military biography of Moshe Dayan, the early Zionist activity is described:

      “Using Rothschild’s money, JNF purchased land from absentee Turkish landlords. To the Arab tenant farmers, the transfer of land from Turkish to Jewish ownership was of little consequence since the Jews rehired them as agricultural workers.”

      I will politely refer you to Prof. Tom Segev's book One Palestine Complete which chronicles in painstaking detail Britain's attitudes toward her Jewish citizens and the behind the scenes motivations for Britain's support of Zionism. Prof. Segev using British archival documents paints a rather clear picture that the supporters of Zionism did so in order to eventually rid Great Britain of its Jews.

      Segev is not the only scholar who comes to this conclusion. In 1621, the British MP Sir Henry Finch wrote a book entitled "The World's Great Restoration" in which he suggest that the Jewish people return to the Holy Land.

      In 1799, Napoleon issued a proclamation promising to restore Palestine to the Jews as a means of defeating the Turkish Empire's claims to the land.

      In 1808, the London Society for Promoting Christianity among the Jews, familiarly called "The Jews Society," was founded, and it soon became very popular. The zeal for conversion was based on the idea that conversion of the Jews would bring about the Second Coming. Many of the members also believed that restoration of the Jews to "Palestine" was necessary for this purpose.
      Somewhat later, about 1825, John Nelson Darby founded the Plymouth Brethren, a religious sect with a distinct theology, dispensationalism, which professed that the Jews would have to be returned to their ancient kingdom and converted to Christianity before the rule of Christ on Earth.

      For religious, or humanitarian or philosophical or imperialist motives, prominent Britons learned Hebrew, wrote novels about restoration of the Jewish commonwealth, began settlement and exploration societies and advocated restoration of the Jews in public and in private. Among the advocates we may include Lord Lindsay, Lord Shaftesbury Lord Palmerston, Disraeli, Lord Manchester, George Eliot, Holman Hunt, Sir Charles Warren, Hall Caine and others.

      Lord Lindsay wrote:

      The soil of "Palestine still enjoys her sabbaths, and only waits for the return of her banished children, and the application of industry, commensurate with her agricultural capabilities, to burst once more into universal luxuriance, and be all that she ever was in the days of Solomon. ( Crawford, A.W.C. (Lord Lindsay), Letters on Egypt, Edom and the Holy Land, London, H. Colburn 1847, V II, p 71).

      Anthony Ashley Cooper, Earl of Shaftesbury was an Evangelical Christian, part of the revival of Evangelical faith that swept Britain in the early 19th century. Religious motives prompted him to initiate charity works and further social legislation, including the ten hour day act. At the same time, he was keen for the restoration of the Jews, and their conversion to Christianity.

      There exists at the present time among the Jews dispersed over Europe, a strong notion that the time is approaching for their nation to return to Palestine...It would be of manifest importance to the Sultan to encourage the Jews to return and to settle in Palestine because the wealth which they would bring with them would increase the resources of the Sultan's dominions; and the Jewish people, if returning under the sanction and protection and at the invitation of the Sultan, would be a check on any future evil designs of Mehmet Ali or his successors... I have to instruct Your Excellency strongly to recommend to hold out every just encouragement to the Jews of Europe to return to Palestine. ( p 175). Tuchman, Barbara, Bible and Sword: England and Palestine from the Bronze Age to Balfour, Ballantine Books, 1988.

      F. Laurence Oliphant (1829-1888), MP and Evangelical Christian, was a follower of Lord Shaftesbury. In 1880 Oliphant published a book entitled The Land of Gilead, urging the British Parliament to assist the restoration of Jews to Palestine from Russia and Eastern Europe, and advocating that Palestinian Arabs be removed to reservations like those of the North American Indians.
      ", There were plenty of conflicts between the communities, both under the Turks, before, and especially under Christian rule."

      I did write, because I was comparing the history of Jews in traditionally Muslim lands to that of Jews in Europe:

      "For 2000 years Muslims, Jews and Christians lived together in relative peace"

      My mother's family (Helfant/ Czarna and Markowitz/Moreno) lived in North Africa until the mid 19th century before going to Lodz.

      My mother's great grandmother wrote extensively about the extreme anti Semitism throughout Europe in contrast to what they were used to. In 1905, my left Lodz for London to escape the oppressive anti Semitism which my g-grandmother said in London was only marginally better than in Eastern Europe.

      My father's family (from Tetouan Morocco) has completely different stories about good relations with their Muslim neighbors. My father's cousins were protected by Muslim neighbors when the Nazis went door to door looking for Jews. And the King Mohammed V's stand against the Nazis is famous among my father's relatives who observe the anniversary of the King's death each year. (see also Robert Satloff's Among the Righteous).

      On my mother's side, my mother's aunt Dora and her family were rescued from Nazi occupied France by the Imam of the Great Mosque of Paris. Hopefully my mother's aunt's story will be included in the sequel to this book

      www.amazon.com/Grand-Mosque-Paris-Muslims-Holocaust/dp/0823421597

      I provided the authors with family pictures and documents which they hope to use in a sequel.


      www.amazon.com
      When the Nazis occupied Paris, no Jew was safe from arrest and deportation. Few Parisians were willing to risk their own lives to help. Yet during that perilous time, many Jews found refuge in an unlikely place--the sprawling complex of the Grand Mosque of Paris. Not just a place of worship but a...
      ==0==

      from"Dr. Richard L. Benkin"
      toKazi Azizul Huq
      dateWed, Dec 7, 2011 at 5:09 PM

      Re: Continuation of the discussion by Mrs. Renee Leavy Kohn in the FB social media






      Thank you, Mrs. Kohn; that is really an impressive answer, and I tip my cap to you.
      Here, I believe, is where you and I part ways.

      I spend a lot of time in South Asia and with South Asians, and while my love and admiration for all peoples of the region knows no bounds, there is a tendency toward conspiracy theory.  As soon as people find out I am Jewish, there is always a hefty portion who assume I am Mossad; people definitely conflate “Jewish” and “Israeli.”  This tendency, moreover, extends to the highest levels of government, media, and academia.  Let me digress with one of my favorite vignettes.

          A few years ago, I was walking across the campus of Lucknow University, having just completed two days of addresses to students and faculty.  As my colleague and I were passing the Islamic Studies Center, a young man ran out and asked that we join him and his colleagues inside for some tea.  In traditional Muslim fashion, our hosts were gracious and generous; and we all engaged in a spirited discussion and back-and-forth on many subjects.  We found common ground in some cases, and in others, as my dear friend Kazi Azizul Huq would say, we agreed to disagree (perhaps the greatest indicator of a free and open mind).  As the discussion was winding down, one of the participants, an accomplished Urdu journalist, blurted out something about “the occupation,” which triggered even more spirited debate that he and I carried out well into the night at different venues.  Just outside of Center, however, we had this exchange:

      HIM:    Well, every Muslim child knows that the entire media is owned by seven Jews.

      ME:     You’re kidding, right?

      HIM:    No.

      ME:    Hmm. I must have missed that meeting. So, tell me who are you talking about?

      HIM:    Rupert Murdoch.

      ME:    Not Jewish.

      HIM:   Now you’re kidding.

      ME:    No, I’m not.  He’s a good friend.  A strong supporter of Israel, but not Jewish.  Who else?

      HIM:   Ted Turner.

      ME:    Ted Turner?  I don’t think he even likes Jews!

      And it went on from there, ending with my saying:  If you’re spreading this rubbish—and you’re an educated, knowledgeable individual, an opinion maker—what hope does your children have?  As long as you and your colleagues insist on giving your children propaganda over facts; you will always be a beggar people.

      Perhaps my conclusion was phrases a bit harsh, but the journalist and I continued talking and arguing over dinner and well into the night.  And the story helps illustrate why I bristle at anything that contributes to that conspiratorial state of mind—whether intended so or not.  I am especially sensitive to statements that talk about “the Jews” as if we were some unified, monolithic organization; which, of course could not be further from the truth.  Hence, my initial reaction.

      I love your fleshy response, which provides a good deal of substance to the discussion.  But, again, here is where we differ:

          1.    First, while there is no doubt that Rothschild was able to gain some influence and wring a few concessions with the war loans (the family also lent heavily to the other side); the notion of significant Jewish influence or control over British foreign policy is almost laughable.  Jews had been expelled from England for centuries and had become “legitimate” in the relatively recent past.  They were not well-thought of among the populace and certainly not among the elites.  The history of Britain in the Middle East (and pretty much everywhere else, too) is one of British self-interest;and it is difficult to get a rounded picture of that without pairing the Balfour Declaration with the White Paper of 1939 and even the 1916 Sykes-Picot Agreement, which I think best reflected British (and French) thinking and interests and would be their world had they been able to maintain it.  I also recall visiting the former British prison camp in Northern Israel at Atlit, where Jewish immigrants (most survivors of the camps) were held and treated abysmally.  Couple that with the British and American driven Bermuda conference during World War II (which ratified the formal position of inaction on the Holocaust despite extensive and verified information of its existence); and we have a picture of a British foreign office that is downright hostile to Jews and ultimately a Jewish State (the UK abstained on the 1947 Palestine Partition vote).

          2.    I love some of your documented history, but can find individuals (even a lot) who acted heroically; that does not mean that some general good will and moral courage existed among any segment of the world’s population (including my own United States) during the Holocaust.  We can walk down the Avenue of the Righteous in Yad Vashem and see numerous examples.  Going back, the supposed harmony among the Abrahamic faiths under Islamic rule was based on a philosophy of Islamic supremacy and required all sorts of humiliating laws and practices as regards Jews.  It is much like contrasting the lack of open racial tension in early 20th century America with the tumult of the Civil Rights movement in the 1960s and 1970s; and saying that during the former, American whites and blacks lived in harmony.

          3.    And while your points about certain rabbinic opposition to a political founding of Israel, they are, for the most part anachronistic and premised on Jewish powerlessness and fear of retaliation during those older periods.  It was not just in that area but in others where rabbis and community elders enjoined Jews to keep their heads down—whether opposition to Jewish self-determination movements or the proscriptions against wearing jewelry or other signs of well-being.  Moreover, as you know, that position is held by a small and increasingly marginal group among the Jewish people and rabbinate.

          4.    I humbly consider myself something of an expert about Hasidism and really take issue with characterizing the movement as monolithically anti-Zionist.  Many zadikim and others advocated moving to Israel and strengthening a Jewish state.  Hasidism was more than anything else a movement for the “little people” and one of quietism; and it must be seen within that context.  It was a movement to “re-enfranchise” a large stratum of Jews who had been disenfranchised by the overly intellectual Mitnagdim of the time.  Whatever helped became part of the tales, even when the contrary became part of other tales; and hence, the criticality of the Baal Shem Tov’s emphasis on the importance of living in the Galut.  Let’s also remember that Hasidism was born shortly after the Sabbatai Zevi false messiah craze and during its Polish step-child (Jacob Frank).  There was a lot of pressure on the Jewish community of Eastern Europe (where Hasidism was born) to “prove” that it was loyal and not tied to the now-Turkish loving Zevi or was looking to re-locate to Israel, disdaining their current homes.  That, more than a monolithic commitment, drove the examples of praising the Galut and minimizing what was then Zionism.  (And the Jewish people had a lot to worry about having recently experienced the mass murders of Chmielnitzky and others.)

      ==0==

      Renee Leavy Kohn
      ‎", that position is held by a small and increasingly marginal group among the Jewish people and rabbinate."

      Actually the sects which constitute Edah have grown to 1.2 million adherents and due to an average birth rate of 5.8 children per couple combined with shorter generations are growing at a rate which is exponentially higher than that of Modern Orthodox.

      Reform and Conservative population demographics are shrinking.

      The "small and increasingly marginal groups among the Jewish people and the rabbinate whether this sits well with your personal views or not are the Modern Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and non affiliated rather than the Haredim.


      ‎"I humbly consider myself something of an expert about Hasidism and really take issue with characterizing the movement as monolithically anti-Zionist."


      Please elaborate about how a Reform affiliated Jew becomes an expert on Hasidim.


      As I mentioned above, my mother is a great niece of the Imrei Emes and my grandfather a"h provided kosher meat to the Chassidic community in Miami Beach.

      The Breslover Rav of Monsey is my second cousin and another second cousin is a Satmar Ruv and nephew of the Satmar Rebbe, Rabbi Yoel Teitelbaum.

      My children went to Chassidic schools.

      Until 3 years ago, we lived in Chassidic communities (Brooklyn, Miami Beach). We moved to a very strong Sephardic community because my husband is a Syrian Jew and the neighborhood where we now live has many Sephardic synagogues and social activities for our children.

      For two decades I have done translation work (volunteer) for several Chassidic Rabbis (including Rabbi Dovid Meisels author of the most wonderful book in English about the Satmar Rebbe ztl) as well as Edah.

      http://www.amazon.com/Rebbe-Rabbi-Dovid-Meisels/dp/1600911307

      I would certainly would NOT call myself an expert about Hasidim despite having a mother from a Rebbeishe Chassidic family (my father is Sephardic), attending Chassidic schools, living in Chassidishe neighborhoods for most of my life, having children educated in Chassidishe schools, keeping Chasidishe kashrus, using a Chassidishe mikveh for more than 2 decades, attending a Chassidishe shteibel each Sabbath for most of my life etc etc etc.

      Anyway, as you stated that you "really take issue with characterizing Edah Hachareidit as monolithically anti Zionist", I respectfully request that you provide at least one example of a Kol Koreh issued by any Chassidic Rebbe in history to support your assertion that there is/was or ever will be a Chassidic Rebbe who is not anti Zionist.

      I will give you a head start however that you should NOT look to Lubavitch. Despite the fact that some have claimed throughout the years that the Lubavitcher Rebbe ztl was a Zionist, this is simply not the case. I knew the Rebbe ztl personally having first met the Rebbe ztl in 1977.

      The Lubavitcher Rebbe defined Israel as ‘bitter exile and double-fold darkness.’ Senior Chabad members describe the Rebbe as one of the great fighters against Zionism.They define Zionism as idolatry and worship of stars and constellations, and there are also those who have written about the need to degrade Zionism, as one spits at a place of idolatry.

      The rabbi of Kiryat Motzkin, David Meir Drukman, writes that the Lubavitcher Rebbe’s opinion was “absolute opposition to the Zionist idea.” Rabbi Sholom Dovber Wolpo says that, “the Rebbe was opposed to all the celebrations of Independence Day.” The rabbi of the Chabad community in Neve Yaakov, Tuvia Blau, says that the Lubavitcher Rebbe was “the greatest of battlers against Zionism.”


      Rabbi Schneerson refused to use the words “state of Israel.”


      The Lubavitcher Rebbe erased Independence Day from a calendar he received. Chabad’s calendars ordinarily leave out Independence Day and the Memorial Day for Israel’s fallen soldiers.



      The Rebbe ordered at least two columnists to publish articles and books against Zionism and the state of Israel.

      Ahead of last Independence Day, 11 senior rabbis from Chabad issued a ban forbidding one of their own members, Shimon Rosenberg, from lighting a torch at the official Independence Day ceremony claiming that, “this action is contrary to the opinion of Chabad rabbis.”

      Chabad spokesman Menachem Brod said during a panel discussion at Hemed yeshiva in 2008 that, “the state of Israel was conceived and born in iniquity.” Rabbi Tuvia Blau wrote that, “we forget that the state of Israel is an exile like all exiles….” He has also written about the duty and mitzva of “degrading the Zionist idolotry.”


      www.amazon.com
      Enter the glorious court of Satmar-a flourishing Chassidic dynasty that is as in...See More



      Also do not look to Ger. Despite the fact that many also claim that the Gerrer Rebbes are Zionists, this is simply not the case and never was.
      I will refer you to a 1984 ruling of the Gerrer Rebbe, the Lev Simcha, Rabbi Simcha Bunim Alter ztl which forbade Rabbi Menachem Porush from participating in the Zionism government even under the guise of an "Agudah Israel" party.

      The Imrei Emes (father of the Lev Simcha) was one of the founders of Agudah Israel and as the Lev Simcha wrote in the name of his father, this ruling is significant for anyone who remains under the mistaken belief that Ger's anti Zionism was only pre-State.



      The following is a translation of a letter from the Sfas Emes, the Gerrer Rebbe (1847-1905). The letter is printed in the book Chiddushei Harim and Gur Aryeh, Bilgoraya 5673, letter number 8 at the end of the book.


      Thursday of Parshas Kedoshim 5661 (1901), Gur.


      It is sad that this letter is often misconstrued as Ger's support of Zionism because when the whole letter is read in context, it is easy to see that this is not the case and never was.


      Life and peace to the honor of my friend, the great and famous and holy rabbi, Rabbi Yisroel shlita.


      I received your letter, accompanied by the pilpul on halacha. I was happy to see you walking with broad knowledge through the Talmud and poskim. Now I will do your bidding to tell you my humble opinion on this subject (moving to Eretz Yisroel) as far as halacha, and practically speaking.


      Briefly, certainly one who has a little fear of Heaven, accepts upon himself to keep the mitzvos of terumos and maaseros, and knows that his wife will not be against it, should not be afraid to go to Eretz Yisroel, and it will be considered a mitzvah. Even though this aliyah would not be for the sake of the mitzvah, we say that "by doing mitzvos for the wrong reasons one will eventually come to do them for the right reasons." But one who is not certain of himself that he will fulfill the many mitzvos of the land gifts to the poor and tithes come out to about a fifth of the produce or more, and keeping the Shmittah is even harder, a great test, especially if all their livelihood will be from the produce of the land then he should not bring himself to such a test.


      And especially regarding what you proposed to permit people who act improperly in our countries to go to Eretz Yisroel, on the assumption that once they live there they will humble themselves, G-d forbid that a descendent of my father should say such a thing! These people only go to benefit from the land, for their livelihood is difficult here. Surely you have heard about the groups of irreligious and wicked people who have spread in Eretz Yisroel and Jerusalem. Woe to the ears that hear this! Therefore in this case there is definitely a possibility of a prohibition.


      All this pertains to the halacha. Now, turning to the practical sphere, you wish to make efforts in this area, to convince Jews to move to Eretz Yisroel. But you should not rely on stories; rather you should first send a few men with good sense and they should stay there for at least a few months, to see if it is really possible to live off the produce of the land. Hearing is not the same as seeing. And it is well known that there are many poor people in Eretz Yisroel why do they not live off the produce of the land? And at least you must first ask people you know who have lived there several years and see what they have to say about this. You say that there has been a change there, that the land is sprouting with blessing, more than previously, but I have not heard this. You can get the true story from the Jews of Eretz Yisroel.


      Regarding what you wrote further that through your efforts a majority of the Jewish people will come there, your words are all astounding. In this matter we say, "Let not he who puts on his sword boast like him who takes it off" (Melachim I 20:11). We cannot use this as one of our reasons to permit immigration to Eretz Yisroel.


      May the Holy One, blessed is He, restore our captivity soon, and bring us up to Zion with song, and make us joyous as much as the days of our affliction.


      His friend who seeks his peace, Aryeh Leib of Gur.


      His successor, the Imrei Emes, was also very strong in his opposition to Zionism. However, he did encourage his chassidim to move to Eretz Yisroel, and made trips there to strengthen the community. As a member of Moetzes Gedolei Hatorah, he was criticized by Rabbi Chaim Elazar Shapiro, the Munkaczer Rebbe, for the Agudah activists excesses in stressing emigration to the Holy Land. In response, the Imrei Emes said that he was only the honorary president but had no actual power over the activists:


      "In truth, I already dislike bearing the title of honorary president of the Agudah. I would willingly give up the honor and I wish I had never taken it on. For what do I need such a big responsibility? Who am I that people should blame these things on me? I would like you to suggest a different way for religious Jews to unite, so that there might be no complaints against us." (Tikun Olam, p. 19)


      In the years immediately prior to the establishment of the Zionist state, Agudah policy was dominated by Isaac Meir Levine, son-in-law of the Imrei Emes. However, he was mostly unable to consult with the Imrei Emes (who was then in his last year of life) or other gedolim, and the decision reached by him and other Agudah activists to enter the provisional government was not based on any ruling from the gedolim. See Mikatowitz Ad Hei B'Iyar, Chapter 6.


      The Gerrer Rebbes' policy from then on has been to vote, but that does not mean that they would disagree with the halachic sources forbidding the establishment of a state.


      Another hint:

      Do not look to Belz although I have seen accounts that claim that the Belzer Chassidim are Zionists.

      The Belzer Rav, Rabbi Ahron Rokeach, followed in the footsteps of his father, Rabbi Yissachar Dov, as a strong anti-Zionist and anti-Agudist.

      When the Eidah became an official kehillah in the 1920s, the Zionists, who called their kehillah Kneses Yisroel, arranged with the British that every Jew would automatically be included in their kehillah, unless he went once a year and registered himself as a yotzei. So that is what the Jews of the Old Yishuv did.

      Several rabbis in Europe wrote letters exhorting everyone to go and register himself as yotzei, including the Belzer Rov, Reb Ahron.

      In 1966, Rabbi Yissachar Dov Rokeach became the Belzer Rebbe. The Rebbe allowed the utilization of government funds to support Belzer yeshivos while halachically continuing to forbid the establishment of a state.

      The Satmar Rebbe ztl was opposed to taking any support from the State for schools. Satmar schools in Eretz Yisroel are funded privately.


      Alexander is another Chassidis that Zionists have held up as supporting the State of Israel. This was never the case.


      Rabbi Shmuel Tzvi, the Alexander Rebbe had this to say about Agudah (ie. participation in the elections and government in the State of Israel)

      "Regarding the Agudah, what can I say and what can I speak? My heart is pained for the slain of the house of Israel! My soul cries in secret over the great destruction and terrible desolation, burning and flickering like fire! The misfortunes grow worse from day to day, and who knows will grow out of this? May Hashem have mercy on the remainder of us. I am almost weakened from suffering so much over this." (Tikun Olam, p. 56).


Friday, February 18, 2011

Israel is far from perfect yet they do seem to try and be Just

Courtesy : Facebook

Meir Stone
Israel is far from perfect yet they do seem to try and be Just for example 14 of the 120 members of the Israeli Parliament are Arab citizens.

One Israel's Supreme Court judges is an Arab.

Arabic and Hebrew are the official Languages of Israel

The Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs states that "Arab Israelis are citizens of Israel with equal rights" and states that "The only legal distinction between Arab and Jewish citizens is not one of rights, but rather of civic duty( They are not drafted into the IDF )

Prime Minister Ariel Sharon ( and I hated him ) declared that every state-run company must have at least one Arab citizen of Israel on its board of directors.

Ali Yahya, an Arab Muslim, became the first Arab ambassador for Israel in 1995 when he was appointed ambassador to Finland. He served until 1999, and in 2006 was appointed ambassador to Greece.

Arab Generals in the IDF include Major General Hussain Fares, commander of Israel's border police, and Major General Yosef Mishlav, head of the Home Front Command

There is Ta'ayush which a grassroots movement of Arabs and Jews working to break down the walls by constructing a true Arab-Jewish partnership.

In April 1948 79 Jewish Doctors and Nurses headed to Hadassah Hospital on Mount Scopus were killed in an ambush . The Hospital was closed till 1967 when it was reopened to care for the Arabs of East Jerusalem and the west Bank.


Tuesday, May 4, 2010

2009 MUSLIM-JEWS-PA DIALOGUE

MUSLIM-JEWS DIALOGUE August 2009
(1)
By E-mail
Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2009 03:25:05 +0700
From: Bangladesh Khelafat Andolon khelafat@dhaka.net
Subject: Jewish point of view for consideration



Friday, 08 Aug.2009

To:
HRH. King Abdulllah bin Abdulaziz al-Saud
H.E.Chief Rabbi David Rosen
H.H. Pope Benedict XVI
H.H.Grand Ayatollah Seyed Ali Khamenei
HRH King Abdullah
Palestine Embassy

Cc:
H.E. President Barack Obama
H.E President Dr. Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
To Whom It May Concern


Muhtaram,

Assalamu Alaykum.

One of our Jewish contacts Dr. Richard L. Benkin has sent following comment to our Facebook wall:

QUOTE
Richard Benkin
There cannot be true ME peace talks until these realities are admitted and dealt with. Without it, we will continue to have the phony slogans and pretend peace talks that never bring peace.

That is only one reason why the Arab adamant refusal to accept Israel as a Jewish State is so critical.

By the way, Arabs and Muslims have full citizenship rights in Israel, serve in the Parliament (Knesset), Supreme Court, etc. Jews--BY LAW--are prohibited from living in Jordan or in a future Palestinian State.

During the Arab occupation of the "West Bank" and Jerusalem, Jews were prohibited from going to their holiest religious sites. Many Jewish sites and institutions were destroyed by the Arabs. But that has never been the case for any religion under Israeli hegemony.

Until there is reciprocity--which the Arabs will not even discuss, as we have seen again this week--there can be no peace talks that will succeed.
Wed at 6:28pm
UNQUOTE


We think, Israel should agree Right of Return for the Palestinians while Arab states in the former Palestinian territory i.e. Jordan and proposed State of Palestine should make provision for granting citizenship to peaceful Jews who make commitment to obey the constitution and the law of the concerned state.

Communists, Atheists and Seculars can not be and should not be trusted to be in the ruling elite of the Holy Land.

An independent City State Jerusalem should be created and administered jointly by the friendly and pious religious clergies of Islam, Christianity and Judaism.
Maassalam.

Kazi Azizul Huq
International Affairs Secretary


(2)
From: Faik Hamza < >
To: Bangladesh Khelafat Andolon < >,
Subject: RE: Jewish point of view for consideration
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 06:33:01 +0000


Dr. Richard L. Benkin as all the Zionist leaders in Israel and rest of the world are not admitting the rights of the Palestinian people to return to their homes and are not ready to confess their crimes against humanity. Which they have committed through out the time since 1897 when their first congress decided to establish a home for themselves on the soil of Palestine.


The Jewish people in Palestine, Syria, Egypt, Iraq and Jordan ware living peacefully at these countries till the terrorist of Zion started killing them to force them emigrate to Israel and till now they are living at these countries with their full rights guaranteed

but maybe Dr. Richard do not know that the Jewish state do not allow the people even from reaching the Mosques for praying, as every Friday thousand of Muslims are not allowed to reach Al Bitu al-Mukkadas for Juma prayer not only that but the people are not allowed o reach their schools, Universities or the hospitals they are not allow to move freely at their home towns and often are beaten arrested or humiliated by the Israeli occupation forces lately the Israeli want the Palestinian to recognize it as a Jewish state. We did not force the Jewish to recognize Palestine as a Muslim country and still we welcome any Jewish who wish to live with us in peace the way how we ware living together before 1948.


I assure Dr. Richard that sooner or later, he and the people like him. will be forced to admit their crimes , since we Muslim, Christians and Jewish Palestinians together we will be able to regain our rights and return to our home to build our independent state of Palestine, with Al Quds as its capital under the full control of the Palestinians who over they are without any foreign interference.


(3)
From: "Dr. Richard L. Benkin" < >
To: "Faik Hamza" < >,
Subject: Re: Jewish point of view for consideration
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 06:43:07 -0500


Faik Hamza is providing all of you with falsehoods and disinformation. Slander is the stock in trade of he and his ilk. Those who listen to it do so at the expense of justice and our future.


Dr. Richard L. Benkin
http://www.InterfaithStrength.com
http://www.interfaithstrength.blogspot.com/
+1-847-922-6426


(4)
From: Faik Hamza
To: "Dr. Richard L. Benkin"
Subject: RE: Jewish point of view for consideration
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 15:09:39 +0000


Do the Dr knows what justice really is

(5)
From: "Dr. Richard L. Benkin" < >
To: "Faik Hamza" < >,
Subject: Re: Jewish point of view for consideration
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 10:24:26 -0500


Hamza damns himself as a supremacist who seeks the death of all faiths except his. He is the best advertisement for why he and his ilk are a scourge on humanity.

Dr. Richard L. Benkin
http://www.InterfaithStrength.com
http://www.interfaithstrength.blogspot.com/
+1-847-922-6426


(6)
Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2009 23:41:18 +0700
To: "Dr. Richard L. Benkin" < >
From: Bangladesh Khelafat Andolon < >
Subject: Confidential
Cc: kahuq@dhaka.net

Dear Brother Richard,

Assalamu Alaykum.

I am copying hereunder a part of our 2007 correspondences in which there are 2 mails from Mr. Hamza dtd 1 Aug.2007 and 2 Aug.2007.

Best regards.

Huq


(7)
From: "Dr. Richard L. Benkin" < >
To: "Bangladesh Khelafat Andolon" < >
Cc: kahuq@dhaka.net
Subject: Re: Confidential
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 12:06:45 -0500

Dear Brother Huq,

Shalom Aleichem.

This the difference between you and Hamza. I would bet everything I have, as well, that you are a more devout follower of the Prophet Mohammed and his faith, Islam.


Were more people like you, the conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere would have ended long ago. I think always about our statement to "agree to disagree." And that is why I defend our relationship and defend you even against people who otherwise are allies of mine. You know I will always stand on my beliefs, regardless of who opposes me; and I believe strongly that you are a good man, an honest man, and a devout man. Enmity of others cannot tear us asunder.


Among civilized individuals, there always will be disagreements and differences in specific goals and positions. You, sir, carry your beliefs and values within the context of a civil society whereby we utilized the same legitimate means to achieve our goals and respect the will of the people, win or lose, within the confines of civil society and protection of minorities as well as the majority.


Hamza also confirms in his email to you that the goal of the Palestinian Authority and its constituent organizations is NOT peace with Israel but the destruction of Israel. Under such circumstance, they cannot be an honest peace partner; the consequences to their people is and have been their doing.


Brother Richard Benkin
Dr. Richard L. Benkin
http://www.InterfaithStrength.com
http://www.interfaithstrength.blogspot.com/
+1-847-922-6426


(8)
From: "Dr. Richard L. Benkin" < >
To: "K A Huq" < >
Subject: Fw: Jewish point of view for consideration
Date: Sat, 15 Aug 2009 21:29:07 -0500


Brother, please look at this email string between Hamza and me. Does he have an official position with the Palestinian Authority?


Dr. Richard L. Benkin
http://www.InterfaithStrength.com
http://www.interfaithstrength.blogspot.com/
+1-847-922-6426


----- Original Message -----
From: Faik Hamza
To: "Dr. Richard L. Benkin"
Sent: Saturday, August 15, 2009 8:32 PM
Subject: RE: Jewish point of view for consideration


look our olders gave us the truth about what happened to them 1948 on the hands of the Jews

sure we are obedient, and thats why we are here today a step or maybe two away from regain of what our

fathers and grand fathers lost, what u said about Arabs is not true, maybe for some reasons our leaders right now like to shake hands with their enemy, but be sure thats will not remain for long, the time of cleaning the ignorants as well as you occupiers of Palestine is coming, give damn shit to what that Muslim from India said, the fact is we know who is who, and later on u will discover Dr. that simply you are going to sink in your full of shit, u seem to be so ignorant, you better read the history and learn before its to late Dr.


________________________________________
--------------------
From: "Dr. Richard L. Benkin"
To: Faik Hamza
Subject: Re: Jewish point of view for consideration
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 06:04:19 -0500


Now you are simply full of shit.
As has always been the case for the Arabs, you are more interested in propaganda than truth.

And that is why the Arab people are degraded, ignorant, subject to corrupt governments that do not serve their interests, militarily weak, and sporting the highest levels of unemployment and other social ills in the world. At the end of the 20th century, the United Nations and various experts wrote extensively about how democracy and freedom made huge gains in the century--huge gains everywhere--except the Arab world.

I had a debate with a Muslim (not an Arab) journalist in Northern India earlier this year. He said that "every Muslim knows" that the international media is controlled by seven Jews. "Really, I said. Who are they?" And so he named Rupert Murdoch--who is not Jewish and I told him so. "Who else?" I asked. He named Ted Turner of CNN---also not Jewish. But, this man who is one of the disseminators of information, said, every Muslim is taught this and believes it. You would rather keep your children ignorant and obedient than give them the truth, and that is why you always will be complaining about your condition and blame someone else for it.

Dr. Richard L. Benkin
http://www.InterfaithStrength.com
http://www.interfaithstrength.blogspot.com/
+1-847-922-6426


----- Original Message -----
From: Faik Hamza
To: "Dr. Richard L. Benkin"
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2009 11:11 PM
Subject: RE: Jewish point of view for consideration


The option of Uganda was never rejected but adapted, for some reasons related to the reality on the ground, since the Jews can not reach in there so eazy, while Palestine was the eazyer as it was under GB mandate, the Jews shifted to the option of Palestine the matter was never related to your prayer of return to Al Quds or Zion more than finding home for the Jewish people, could you tel me you Dr. Richard ware ever you are, or ware ever your birth have taking place, could you tel me what relate you to Palestine, who , from your forth generations was there, why do not you feel great to be as you are now USA, GB or ware ever you are citizen.

look at you, you could not say the names of the north palestine cities correctly they are HIFA, YAFA and AKKA , and yes I still beleive that there is place for the Jewish people in Palestine, they can live with us on equal footing, the way we lived together before 1948, we can co exsist in peace and harmony, but how could this happen, while still you insist to deny me my rights to go back and return to my home.

________________________________________
From: "Dr. Richard L. Benkin"
To: Faik Hamza
Subject: Re: Jewish point of view for consideration
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 2009 05:18:22 -0500


No, we never prayed to go to Uganda. Always our prayers have been to return to Jerusalem and Zion. Uganda was suggested by some people but rejected by Jews because it is not our ancestral homeland.

So you mention "North Palestine" and the cities of Haifa, Yaffo, Acco. So, do you accept that you can reach peace with a state of Israel? That Israel can continue to exist? Or do you insist that those cities and others be part of a Palestinian state?

Dr. Richard L. Benkin
http://www.InterfaithStrength.com
http://www.interfaithstrength.blogspot.com/
+1-847-922-6426

----- Original Message -----
From: Faik Hamza
To: "Dr. Richard L. Benkin"
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 8:38 PM
Subject: RE: Jewish point of view for consideration

Well, here Dr. Richard talking about the promised land. Will Dr. Richard give us some information about the option discussed by the said congress to establish the Jewish state at Uganda, how can prayer for centuries to return to the homeland at Palestine given second option of Uganda, did u ever pray to go back to Uganda in Africa? We Palestinian refugees victims of the victims, never prayed to go any where, but to return to our homeland the soil of Palestine, and the most important we are not demanding to return to Gaza or West Bank, though these are parts of Palestine, but to our homes at north of Palestine, at Hifa, Yafa, Aka and Tabaria in the heart of what you have established temporary.


________________________________________
From: "Dr. Richard L. Benkin"
To: Faik Hamza
Subject: Re: Jewish point of view for consideration
Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2009 05:29:05 -0500


By the way, earlier in this email chain, you said, that Jews had to confess their "crimes against humanity. which they have committed through out the time since 1897 when their first congress decided to establish a home for themselves on the soil of Palestine." You are incorrect about the year. We Jews have wanted to return to our ancestral homeland in Jerusalem and Israel for centuries upon centuries. We pray for it every week on our Shabbat, many times yearly during our many religious holidays; always we prayed to return to Jerusalem and Zion; many centuries even before the Zionist Conference in 1897. And we still do. It is in our Jewish religious worship and has always been so.

Dr. Richard L. Benkin
http://www.InterfaithStrength.com
http://www.interfaithstrength.blogspot.com/
+1-847-922-6426

----- Original Message -----
From: Faik Hamza
To: "Dr. Richard L. Benkin"
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2009 12:22 AM
Subject: RE: Jewish point of view for consideration

why do you take it this way, say i hate been made refugee by Jews, I hate been denied return to my home by Jews and you stop this old new accusations against any one who stand against your injustice, why do you run away by accusing me i hate Jews or I am anti Semitic

----------------------------------

From: "Dr. Richard L. Benkin"
To: Faik Hamza
Subject: Re: Jewish point of view for consideration
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2009 20:40:29 -0500
So you hate Jews?

Dr. Richard L. Benkin
http://www.InterfaithStrength.com
http://www.interfaithstrength.blogspot.com/
+1-847-922-6426


----- Original Message -----
From: Faik Hamza
To: "Dr. Richard L. Benkin"
Sent: Sunday, August 09, 2009 8:27 PM
Subject: RE: Jewish point of view for consideration


Damns you Dr. , I do seek justice, I do seek to return to my father's home, is that a scourge on humanity, I do not stop, but i demand the right of Jewish people to return to their homes. not in Palestine, but the places where they ware brought from. Do the Dr. think that Israel protecting humanity by denying the rights of over 4000000 Palestinian refugees or by giving away their belonging to settlers. I think for the Dr. to be human u must admit to the crimes of the Jewish people you must supporting them so they can achieve their dream of great Israel, and then even there will be no Jordan, Syria or Iraq, but only one state of the chosen people of God.

hey Dr. stop misguiding the world, the world today is not blind of what are you doing daily of great deal of killing non-Jewish.

the world today is no more misguided by your fabricated allegations of been or ware the victims what are you doing today in Palestine is clear your not the victims but the killers of the humanity



(9)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 16:41:49 +0700
To: "Dr. Richard L. Benkin" < >, "Mr.Faik Hamza" < >
From: K A Huq < >
Subject: Re: Fw: Jewish point of view for consideration
Cc: "H.E.Chief Rabbi David Rosen" < >,
"HRH King Abdulllah bin Abdulaziz al-Saud"< >,
"H.E.Seyed Ali Khamenei"< >

In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

DHAKA, Sunday, 16 August 2009.

To: Dr. Richard L. Benkin and Mr. Faik Hamza

Cc:
H.E.Chief Rabbi David Rosen, KCSG, Israel.
H.R.H. King Abdulllah bin Abdulaziz al-Saud, KSA.
H.E.Grand Ayatollah Seyed Ali Khamenei, Iran.
To Whom It May Concern

Dear Brothers Richard and Hamza,
Assalamu Alaykum.

1. After receipt of Brother Richard Benkin's mail I talked in detail to Brother Faik Hamza.

2. The purpose of our Dialogue has been reduction of anger and tension and promotion of constructive engagement for peace and justice.

3. Now I think that the correspondence between my two brothers i.e. Dr. Richard Benkin and Mr. Faik Hamza have to be temporarily postponed until both are agreed to disagree and continue constructive dialogue for Peace and Justice.


On 2nd September 2001 we sent a letter to the then Israeli President H.E. Mr. Moshe Katsav. In that letter we wrote:-

QUOTE
I call you my brother, because we believe in the Prophethood of Hazrat Moses Alaihissalam which is testified by the Last Prophet of Allah i.e. Hazrat Muhammad Ibn Abdullah Sallallaho Alaihissalam.

We are the closest and the most compassionate kin of Bani Israel. We have learnt form the Last Revealed Scripture of Allah i.e. The Holy Quran, about the inhuman sufferings inflicted on Bani Israel by Pharaoh. We are definitely partisan of Prophet Hazrat Moses Alsihissalam and his pious & obedient followers amongst Bani Israel. We are completely against Pharaoh and the oppressors like Pharaoh whom we treat to be enemies of Allah and of His Prophets.


Allah Says us in the Holy Quran :

" The apostle believes in what has been revealed to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers ; they all believe in Allah and His angels and His books and His apostles ; We make no difference between any of His apostles: and they say : We hear and obey, our Lord ! Thy forgiveness (do we crave) , and to Thee is the end of all journeys."- (The Holy Quran 2 : 285, Sura Baqarah, Verse No.285).

Allah says in the Holy Quran :

"O people ! be careful of (your duty to) your Lord, Who created you from a single being (Adam) and created his mate (Eve) of the same (kind) and spread from these two many men and women ; and be careful of (your duty to ) Allah, by whom you demand one of the another (your rights) , and (to) the ties of relationship ; surely Allah ever watches over you." (The Quran 4:1 Sura Nisa, Verse No.1)


Therefore, all pious Muslims believe in One Allah, His angels, His books, His apostles ; pious Muslims do not make difference between apostles of Allah ; pious Muslims are modest and they beg forgiveness of Allah ; pious Muslims believe that Allah created mankind from a single pair of parents, i.e. Hazrat Adam Aslaihissalam and his wife Hazrat Eve Alaihissalam - thus the mankind is the progeny of Adam and Eve and are related to each other by blood. Pious Muslims do not believe in the atheistic hypothesis of evolution regarding origin of man which propagates the basis of discrimination i.e. man was originated in different races.

Pious Muslims are inherently non-arrogant, modest and compassionate. It is for the sake of Allah only that they sometime become hard. In fact All apostles of Allah and believers including Hazrat Moses Alaihissalam and his pious followers are Muslims. Islam means surrendering to Allah. Muslim means who has surrendered to Allah. Muslims are neither any race nor any tribe nor any ethnic community. Last apostle of Allah i.e. Prophet Muhammad Ibn Abdullah Sallallaho Alaihissalam was brotherly and compassionate to the Jewish people. But unfortunately some of his neighboring Jews turned to be the enemies of Allah. He was required by Allah to be hard to the enemies of Allah.


Divine Revelation in Sura Maidah (V) of the Holy Quran :-

" Verse - 20. And when Musa said to his people : O my people ! remember the favor of Allah upon you when He raised prophets among you and made you kings and gave you what He had not given to any other among the nations. "

" Verse - 21. O my people ! enter the holy land which Allah has prescribed for you and turn not on your backs for then you will turn back losers."

" Verse - 24. They said : O Musa ! we shall never enter it so long as they are in it; go therefore you and your Lord, then fight you both, surely we will here sit down."

" Verse - 25. He (Musa) said : My Lord ! surely I have no control (upon any) but my own self and my brother ; therefore make a separation between us and the nation of transgressors. " (The Holy Quran, Sura Maidah, Sura No.5 )


Kindly verify above facts from your own sources and Rabbi. The way the State of Israel was created by wiping out indigenous population of Palestine, is not justifiable even in accordance with the principles of the prevailing Western Civilization and its institutions - while the western civilization and its institutions owes largely its existence and promotion to our Jewish brethren. It is a contradiction. It is highly irrational.

Nevertheless, realities on the ground have been accepted by the Palestinians as well as by the neighboring states. Then by what Commandment of the Ten Commandments you are denying the inalienable rights of your Muslim and Christian fellows to have a separate Palestinian homeland ?

Let there be light. Let there be peace. Let again the exalted place of Jerusalem be upheld.
UNQUOTE


On 16th April 2007 we Re-sent a copy of that letter to American Jewish Committee (AJC).

Honorable Chief Rabbi David Rosen, International Director of Interreligious Affairs of American Jewish Committee (AJC), sent us a reply in which he wrote:

QUOTE
-Twenty per cent of the State of Israel are Arabs ninety per cent of them being Muslims who are full citizens of the State of Israel.

- Israel's Declaration of Independence 1. affirms equality of rights for non-Jews a position energetically defended by the Israeli courts and 2. calls on the Arab states to live in peace with her.

- Israeli leaders called on the Arab population not to leave their homes in the build up and during the fighting of 1948.

-In 1967 Israel sent a letter via the US to King Hussein urging him not to join Egypt and Syria in trying to exterminate Israel. Hussein ignored this warning and lost control of East Jerusalem and the West Bank as a result. Israel did not force Arab residents to flee this was their (misguided) choice (substantially fueled by anti-Jewish propaganda.).

- Israel's first president Chaim Weizman signed a concordat of cooperation with the Emir Feisal as leader of the Arab world in 1919. Most Arab nations ignored this and launched hostilities and then war against Israel which led to the tragedy of Palestinian displaced persons.

These points make it clear that Israel has never sought to wipe out any population in the Holy Land/mandatory Palestine, but has sought and seeks to live in peace with them and guaranteeing that in its own society, all are equal before the law and equality of franchise, regardless of religion or race.

As far as a Palestinian state is concerned, the goal of establishing such ( a two states solution) is the official policy of the State of Israel, for which it withdrew at the time from the territories in the West Bank under the Oslo accords. Unfortunately, Palestinian violence forced Israel to reoccupy much of these. If the Palestinians will recognize Israel and cease violent acts against its citizens, they will gain their legitimate aspiration for a state (which is actually in the interests of the State of Israel as well.)

Blessings from Al Kuds Al Sharifa in the prayer that all who hold Jerusalem dear will be able to enjoy her sanctity and beauty in safety and dignity.
UNQUOTE


In 2007 the representative of the Palestinian Authority verbally informed us following points to be communicated to our Jewish counterpart :-

QUOTE
Equality of Citizenship in Israel:
It is not true that all citizens irrespective of Jews or Arab Muslims enjoy equal status and opportunities in Israel. Even all Jews are not equal in Israel.

There are 3 classes of Jews in Israel:
(a) Western Jews (European/American) the privileged Class
(b) Eastern Jews (Middle Eastern) the under-privileged Class
(c) Black Jews (African) like the slave Class

Western Jews (from Europe/USA/Canada) enjoy higher status and opportunities in Israel. Eastern Jews and African Jews suffer discrimination.

Arabs generally suffer more severe discrimination and frequent persecution, intimidation and suffocation. Even those Arabs who are in good book of the Jews and have been made Knesset members are not spared from frivolous allegations and charges based on communal suspicion.

Territory and Border of Israel :
On the entrance of Israeli Knesset (Parliament) and on one side of Israeli currency the territory of Israel is shown from the Nile to the Euphrates.

It indicates Israel’s belligerent provocative nature.

Right of Return:
The Jews from anywhere in the world are considered to have the Right of Return to Israel though those Jews or their parents or their grandparents were not inhabitant of that land.

Palestinians who themselves or their parents or their grandparents were inhabitant of that land are denied of the Right of Return.
UNQUOTE

We duly communicated the same to our Jewish Counterpart in Israel.

Honorable Chief Rabbi David Rosen of Israel sent to us following reply:-

QUOTE
Allow me to express my appreciation for the spirit in which you have initiated and continue this discussion in keeping with the injunctions of the Prophet PBUH, to engage others especially the Peoples of the Book in respectful discourse; and in keeping with his revelation of the Divine injunction "to know one another".

I am also grateful for the opportunity you offer me to dispel distortions, falsehoods and myths, that have become widespread as a result of the poison of politics and propaganda which "blind the eyes of the wise and distorts the words of the just ".


I refer to your points in the order you have numbered them.

1. This allegation reveals great ignorance regarding Israeli politics and society. Not only is there complete equality of franchise for Arabs and Jews whether Sephardic (from the ME, Asia and Africa essentially Muslim lands) or Ashkenazic ( essentially from European lands), but the current President of Israel, the Minister of Defense, the Attorney General, the Chief of Staff (and I could go on) are all Sephardic Jews and the Sephardic religious party, Shas, is currently being "courted" by the candidates for the next presidency, revealing the degree to which it exerts control in Israeli political life.

Moreover my own son-in-law's parents come from Morocco and I certainly do not consider him not our grandchildren to be second class citizens in any way.

I can only conclude that the strange and spurious reference to Black African Jews concerns Jews from Ethiopia (there are of course many black Jews from Yemen and Jews from southern Africa residing in Israel.) It is true that Ethiopian Jews face many difficulties due to the fact that before their return to the Jewish homeland they have lived in a very different and disadvantaged cultural context without the same educational opportunities. However not only is there no institutional discrimination against them, but the State actually allocates additional resources for social and educational services as a means of affirmative action.

The complete falsehood of this allegation about different classes of Jews, should lead you to conclude that the allegations concerning Israel's Arab citizens are similarly as false.

2. There is no emblem of Israel's currency at the Knesset. However there is a pattern on the ten agorot coin (approximately one penny sterling hardly a significant coinage !) that could be seen as a map of the Middle East and may be seen as an allusion to the journeys of our Father Abraham. There is no basis to any claim that the motive behind this outline on the ten agorot coin is belligerent (and as I say, if there would have been any significant motive, it would have made sense to use a more prestigious coin or note! ) However let us for argument's sake allow that the reference intended by this pattern is to indicate that the Divine promise to Abraham Isaac and Jacob as written in the Torah was to inherit the land from the Nile to the Euphrates. Does this imply belligerence ? Judaism like Islam forbids any act of violence against innocents and prohibits theft and robbery of any person. No Divine promise can permit the transgression of God's Law and His moral prohibitions. There are certainly Jews who dream that one day God's promises will be fulfilled, but no decent Jew thinks for one minute that that allows him to wage war against others especially believers in the One God nor God forbid to steal others' property.

The parallel would be if a Muslim country had an outline of a map of the extent of the Caliphate when Muslim rule was at its zenith. Surely that would be a legitimate memorial of the past and even a hope for the future as long as it is not achieved in a manner that shows any disrespect for the life and dignity of another.

3. This is the only point that contains a legitimate criticism. Allow me to explain how Jews see Israel's Law of Return.

Even though we were expelled from our land both by the Babylonians (in 586 BCE) and then by the Romans (70 CE) not only have there always been Jews living in the Holy land, but wherever we have been, we have maintained our fidelity to our relationship with it. It is the only "Qibla" for Jewish prayer. In our daily prayers three times a day and in grace after every meal, we prayed and still pray for our return to the land and its restoration. Our festivals are not only historical festivals but seasonal ones as well (therefore our lunar calendar is synchronized with the solar calendar) in keeping with the seasons in the Holy Land (Jews who live in Argentina for example celebrate the Spring festival in the autumn and pray for rain when it is not appropriate for Argentina, because our liturgy is conditioned by the land.) At the end of a Jewish wedding a glass is broken in remembrance of the destruction of Jerusalem and hope for the return. At the end of the holiest day in the Jewish calendar, the Day of Atonement, and at the end of the Passover meal we declare "next year in Jerusalem."

Accordingly we have always seen ourselves as citizens in potential and the establishment of the State of Israel has enabled us to exercise this "citizenship".

I lament that Palestinians from the Holy Land are not able to enjoy this right as well and the only reason for that is the ongoing conflict and the concomitant security concerns. I pray that these will be resolved, peace will prevail, a Palestinians state will be established; and Palestinians will be able to enjoy the same rights in their state as Jews enjoy in theirs insh'Allah.

I concur with the sentiments of his Excellency and applaud your initiatives. I think that it would also be important for us to come together and bring religious leaders from the Muslim and Jewish worlds to discuss these matters and work on a common plan for justice security and peace for all in the Holy Land.
UNQUOTE

Then the we received from the representative of the PA copy of resolution of the Non-Aligned Movement (NAM) which we duly forwarded to our Jewish counterpart in the Dialogue.

Honorable Chief Rabbi David Rosen in his reply wrote:-

QUOTE
With regards to the file from the PA that you sent, I do not claim that every thing that the government of Israel does is right and just indeed, Israeli society is distinguished from those around it precisely by the fact that in a true democracy, people are free to criticize their governments. Not only can you see this in Israeli daily newspapers (e.g. on line at) www.haaretz.com but also in the plethora of civil rights organizations that focus overwhelmingly on Arab/Palestinian human rights (including one that I co-founded called Rabbis for Human Rights.)

However to present a litany of Israel's actions against Palestinians as if this was some kind of intentional brutality is to be disingenuous at best. Attached in response to the file from the PA, is a random compilation of daily threats by Palestinians to Israeli civilians in just the last few months. It is such actions as these that lead to the Israeli military's response which the PA file documented.

I have already addressed his Excellency on the matter of the Holy Sites which are fully protected by the government of Israel and that as far as the Haram Al Sharif is concerned, Jewish religious law prohibits Jews from entering thereon. As far as the Gay Parade is concerned, you will no doubt know that the religious authorities and communities here worked hard successfully to prevent this in the past and even when it was permitted this year, was restricted to areas far from any religious site (and far from the Old City.)

As far as libel against Jesus of Nazareth is concerned, you will not find any dignified Jew indulging in such perversities, which when they took place centuries ago, were a reaction of Jewish suffering to Christian oppression. It is obvious to all respectable Rabbinic leadership that such libel is contemptible and condemnable.

I conclude with the prayer that the Almighty and All-Merciful will enlighten all humanity to live in respect for the life and dignity of all people.
UNQUOTE


We think that the above correspondence show us light of hope and inspiration to move forward to remove impediments in the way of implementing the agreed Two State Solution.

With best wishes and best regards to all.

Maassalam,

Kazi Azizul Huq
(ibn Abdulhuq ibn Izzatullah ibn Abdulhamid)

Founder Convener, CIRB-Hezbollah cirb.hezbollah@gmail.com
International Affairs Secretary, Bangladesh Khelafat Andolon khelafat@dhaka.net
Advisor, Islamic Democratic Party (Organization led by veterans of Afghan War of Liberation from soviet Occupation)
Team Leader, Human Rights Forum info.hrf@gmail.com

Address:
24/A, Joar Shahara (Olipara), Dhaka-1229, Bangladesh
Cell: 01819-407963. Tel/Fax:+880-2-8411436 E-mail: kahuq@dhaka.net

(10)
From: "Dr. Richard L. Benkin" < >
To: "Mr.Faik Hamza" < >,"K A Huq" < >
Cc: "H.E.Chief Rabbi David Rosen" < >,
"HRH King Abdulllah bin Abdulaziz al-Saud" < >,
"H.E.Seyed Ali Khamenei" < >
Subject: Re: Fw: Jewish point of view for consideration
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 06:30:49 -0500


Dear Brother Huq,

Shalom Aleichem!

Let us be clear-headed about something. I know you will recall the days we spent together in Dhaka in 2007 and especially are hours-long dialogue. Brother, it is no secret that both of us began that conversation with many suspicions about one another and perhaps even doubts about each other's sincerity. We also disagreed on many specific issues that arose during that dialogue.

But during the course of that afternoon, respect replaced suspicion and doubt; and we "agreed to disagree." We recognized that as a believing Muslim and a believing Jew, we ultimately had more in common than we had in conflict. It led to further dialogue, further understanding, further mutual respect; and a genuine and heartfelt brotherhood between the two of us. It no doubt contributed to both of us taking public action in support of one another's peoples: you, for instance, publicly called for dropping Bangladesh's travel ban to Israel; I stood publicly and passionately defended Islam against those otherwise allies who see it as the root cause of the world's troubles; and we both stood for justice and each other more than once, too.

We continue to hold differing positions on certain issues, but instead of using that as an excuse to demonize one another and end dialogue; those differences only reinforce to us that we need to have more dialogue, of course based on the same level of mutual respect. Baruch Ha-Shem!

Our relationship also began with and flourishes within the soil of our individual strength of belief and defense of our own faiths and peoples as well.

There is a belief--that I share--which says it took two old warriors, two men with impeccable credentials as defenders of their faith and people, to take a giant step toward peace in the Middle East. In fact, Menachem Begin and Anwar Sadat took the single most important stride toward Middle East peace to date. Sadat was a decorated soldier who won his medals fighting Israel; Begin was the first Israeli Prime Minister from the Nationalist camp. Both were unreserved champions of their peoples. Yet, it was these two men who forged the longest lasting and most significant peace agreement in the sad history of the Middle East. Anwar Sadat broke a taboo in coming to Israel for the cause of peace; Menachem Begin risked his political life by uprooting Jewish communities in the Sinai. Both men remained strong in their beliefs but were able to see beyond them to what is the greater good.

I had wondered if dialogue with Mr. Hamza could produce similar results. Perhaps he is not used to genuine opposition, as opposed to phony friendship. But in the end, he advocates the elimination of the Jewish State of Israel and is implacable. He insists on demonizing the Jewish people again and again. He allows no space in which understanding can be reached--in complete contradiction to you and many other Believing Muslims I have the pleasure of knowing. He has essentially called you, my brother, a fool for engaging in honest dialogue with me. Can I be passionate in defense of my people? Of course, and I expect the same from you and others with whom I dialogue. As we both agreed, only that level of honesty can produce productive dialogue such as the sort you and I have had.

Mr. Hamza's intransigence, on the other hand is precisely what is standing in the way of any resolution of the Middle East conflict. He demands only total victory for one side (his). His absolutist position destroys the very purpose of dialogue or a peace process. His insistence on ideology over fact is what has kept and will continue to keep his people in a degraded state where they cannot see any cause for their problems that is not attributable to someone else. And that is a shame. Not only does that insure continued conflict, but it also stunts the development of his people and their children.

So, brother, I agree that the dialogue between Mr. Hamza and me has not been productive, and it likely will not be productive no matter how long it continues. But I would caution against drawing a parallel or moral equivalence between us. I believe I have earned my stripes in that regard, being a passionate Jew and Zionist, yet also a passionate defender of Muslims and opponent of those who would defame Islam. What has Mr. Hamza shown us?

Dr. Richard L. Benkin
http://www.InterfaithStrength.com
http://www.interfaithstrength.blogspot.com/
+1-847-922-6426

(11)
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 22:59:42 +0700
To: "Dr. Richard L. Benkin"< >,"Mr.Faik Hamza"< >
From: K A Huq < >
Subject: Re: Fw: Jewish point of view for consideration
Cc: "H.E.Chief Rabbi David Rosen" < >,
"HRH King Abdulllah bin Abdulaziz al-Saud" < >,
"H.E.Seyed Ali Khamenei" < >

In the name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

Dear Brother Richard,

Assalamu Alaykum.

1. We re-iterate that when we call for removing impediments in the way of implementing the agreed Two State Solution - we want both Israel and Palestine to be viable but non-belligerent states entering into long-term no-war agreements with each other.

2. We continue to uphold that believer Muslims and believer Jews ultimately have more in common than have in conflict.

3. We think that it will be unwise to permanently shut any window for discussion and consultation to improve the situation and mutual acceptability for common good. All of us have to try not to be too angry that we fail to choose good encouraging words in our discussion that Allah loves.

With best wishes and best regards.

Maassalam.

Huq

kazi Azizul Huq (ibn Abdulhuq ibn Izzatullah ibn Abdulhamid)
Cell: 01819-407963. Tel: 8411436. Fax: +880-2-8411436
E-mail: kahuq@dhaka.net


(12)
From: Faik Hamza < >
To: K A Huq
Subject: RE: Jewish point of view for consideration
Date: Tue, 18 Aug 2009 01:53:31 +0000


I never called Mr. Huq a fool, I rether believe that Mr. Huq has all the rights to present his own views, he can call to lift the ban on Bangladeshi people to travel any ware they like to.

Mr. Huq gave me a phone call requesting me not to reply to Dr. Richard slang, which was on respond to my demand return to my home at the north of Palestine, if you go back to our conversation , no ware you will find that i have defamed Muslims or Jewish people or even Israel, rather i have asked Dr. Richard to come and live among us in peace if Dr. Richard is a Jewish and Zionist, well i am a Palestinian refugee, who lost every things. who is injustice put on him, and who is demanding his rights back, is that extreme, and war did I defamed my people and their children, and in which way, I did not gave up their right of return, I did not submit to the occupation, I did not , I will not ever give up the idea of North Palestine, if Dr. Richard have ideas about how to solve the problem of Palestine and how to do real justice, and of course he can represent all the Jewish people in the world let him come forward in put his clear plans who knows maybe i am wrong the gentleman meant really business


(13)
From: "Dr. Richard L. Benkin" < >
To: "K A Huq"
Cc: rosend
Subject: Re: RE: Jewish point of view for consideration
Date: Thu, 20 Aug 2009 14:01:04 -0500

Dear Brother Huq,
Shalom Aleichem.

Movement is always good; but looking at Mr. Hamza's reply, I am not sure he is showing any. In fact, he did berate you for even talking to me. Nor did he show any movement on his position but only denied what he said was indeed what he said. (Do I have to include copies of his emails and statements? Or do we realize he knows what he said?)

Moreover, he follows the same disingenuous line of "negotiation" that his cohorts do. Notice he said he would talk to me if I had a solution--and represented all the Jews in the world!!!!! Gee, do you think that was a genuine offer? It is ironic, though, that the Arabs demand Israel negotiate, make concessions, etc., when the people they want Israel to negotiate with cannot even represent all the Palestinian factions--let alone all the Arabs and Muslims. But evidently, only we should see that as an obligation on us.

In fact, I will issue the following challenge to Mr. Hamza. If negotiators can guarantee that they will reign in all Arabs, Muslims, and Islamists and stop them from continuing their war against Israel once a deal is struck, he will have broken the barrier to productive negotiations.

Dr. Richard L. Benkin
http://www.InterfaithStrength.com
http://www.interfaithstrength.blogspot.com/
+1-847-922-6426

----- Original Message -----
From: K A Huq
To: drrbenkin
Cc: rosend@
Sent: Thursday, August 20, 2009 8:13 AM
Subject: Fwd: RE: Jewish point of view for consideration

Dear Brother Richard,

Assalamu Alaykum.

I am forwarding to you the last mail I have received from Mr. Faik Hamza. He probably forgot to keep copy of his mails of 2007.


I find improvement in Palestinian position as follows:-

(a) he has no objection to our call to Bangladesh Government to lift ban on travel to Israel;

(b) now he agrees that Jews and Zionists can be citizens of proposed State of Palestine.


With slight correction of spelling I have attached the file of our recent correspondence initiated from your views which we put under the title "Jewish point of view for consideration".


With best wishes and best regards.

Maassalam

Your Brother,

Kazi Azizul Huq


(14)
From: Faik Hamza <>
To: Bangladesh Khelafat Andolon
Subject: RE: LINK to Muslim-Jews Dialogue in August 2009
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 05:42:31 +0000
ArrivalTime: 22 Aug 2009 05:42:31.0672


Mr. Huq

I like to make it clear

1- I no where i agreed for you to Bangladesh leave ban on Bangladeshi travel to Israel, I said it is ur right to demand lifting travel of Bangladeshi to travel any where, simply because you are Bangladeshi, it is a matter between you and your Government, I do nothing to do with it, and i do not interfere in it.


2- i stand by my call the Palestinian state is open for all religions, so Mr. Richard welcome to live in Palestine in peace


faik hamza


(15)
Date: Sat, 22 Aug 2009 13:43:03 +0700
To: Faik Hamza <>
From: Bangladesh Khelafat Andolon <>
Subject: RE: LINK to Muslim-Jews Dialogue in August 2009
Cc: "HRH King Abdulllah bin Abdulaziz al-Saud"<>,
"H.E.Chief Rabbi David Rosen" <>,
"H.H. Pope Benedict XVI" <>,
"H.H.Grand Ayatollah Seyed Ali Khamenei"<>,
"HRH King Abdullah"<>,
"Palestine Embassy" <>,
"Dr.Richard L.Benkin"<>,....


Saturday, 22 August 2009.

To: Mr. Faik Hamza, Palestine Embassy, Dhaka.

Cc: To Whom It May Concern

RE: LINK to Muslim-Jews Dialogue in August 2009


Mohtaram Mr.Hamza,

Assalamu Alaykum.

By your mail it is re-confirmed that you have no objection to our persuasion of Bangladesh Government to lift ban on travel to Israel.

Best regards,

Kazi Azizul Huq
International Affairs Secretary
Bangladesh Khelafat Andolon


(16)
From: Faik Hamza <>
To: Bangladesh Khelafat Andolon
Subject: RE: LINK to Muslim-Jews Dialogue in August 2009
Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 05:11:04 +0000


No Mr. Huq what i said is clear, since u represent your self, since you have freedom to say what you like to say,
you can call on your Govt. to lift ban on Bangladeshi travel to any where, I did not point out (Israel), I want to say i am not concerned about what you called for, and this issue is yours with your Govt., I did not dictate you not to say what you want to say, and I did not dictate the Govt. to take action if this against its declared policy, i do have nothing to support or not to support your call,


Mr. Huq, you must understand that i am the victim here, I am who lost his home land to the murderer of the Zionist organizations and the alien Jewish people who immegrated to my home, i am not against the Palestinian Jews, yesterday one of them was elected member of our al-Fateh revolutionary council,


and back to the weekly Blitz, just justify for me , the Bangladeshi action , war of liberation, 1971, ware Bangladeshi terrorists, how do those people think the way to go back to my home , we are fighting , to regain our freedom, according to the international legitimacy, its right given to us by the UN, now anybody who is ignorant about this can go back to the UN resolutions and read and learn, that we are not terrorists seeking destruction of any one, but freedom fighters seeking to return to our homeland.


now as we are discussing the situation of our Palestinian people at North of Palestine, i do not like to go for details, but for the latest call of the Jewish Govt. which demanding us to recognize it as a Jewish state, do you know what that means, its hinting on very soon the Govt. is going to transfer all the Palestinians from north of Palestine to Gaza and west bank.


What i Suggest is Mr. Huq to open direct contact with Arab members of Knesset, who will be glad to give you the real picture of the Palestinian daily life and the danger they face.


then if the occupation is so kind, tell what the occupation did in Gaza Strip from 1967 till 2004, what progress they did,
the camps remained as its in poverty, who did the occupation improve the life of the people, and most important how did any body think that the occupation so willing to hand over Gaza to the PA, yes they did after making the place opened for drugs, and arm smuggling, they have planted all obstacle in front the PA, and most important they have arrange to bring Hamas to the power, and successed to push the Palestinian to side of civil war.


Mr. huq if you want the facts, our struggle is not against the Jewish people, we do have no conflict with them, the problem is Palestine is occupied, our people are denied their rights to return, self determination and establishment of their independent state with Al Quds as its capital, and i think to stand on all the facts, I suggest you to form a FACTS FINDING COMMITTEE, let the committee go there and find out who is who, and what is the situation really is, and what is the facts really are

thank you
hamza


(17)
Dt: Wednesday, August 26, 2009.
To: Mr. F.Hamza, Palestine Embassy, Dhaka.
Cc: To Whom It May Concern
Re: Muslim-Jews Dialogue : Your mail dtd 23 Aug.2009

Assalamu Alaykum.

We have published your comment dated 23 Aug.2009 in our blog. Please check the link:
http://bangladeshkhelafatandolan.blogspot.com/2009/08/muslim-jews-dialogue-august-2009.html

It is the policy of Bangladesh Khelafat Andolon to support the struggle for liberation of Palestine from Israeli occupation, and liberation of Afghanistan & Iraq from British & American occupation.

Bangladesh Khelafat Andolon recognizes just struggles to liberate Palestine, Afghanistan and Iraq from foreign occupation as liberation movements; and those who are engaged in the just struggles are freedom fighters.

Our policy is compliant with Bangladesh Constitution Article-25.1(c) which reads as follows:-

QUOTE
25.1 The State shall base its international relations on the principles of respect for national sovereignty and equality, non-interference in the internal affairs of other countries, peaceful settlement of international disputes, and respect for international law and the principles enunciated in the United Nations Charter, and on the basis of those principles shall ..(c) support oppressed peoples throughout the world waging a just struggle against imperialism, colonialism or racialism.
UNQUOTE

Massalam.

Kazi Azizul Huq
International Affairs Secretary


======================================


APPENDIX

[Previous correspondences 1st - 3rd August 2007]

1 August 2007 from Palestine Embassy to Kazi Azizul Huq
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2007 14:40:58 +1100
From: Palestine Embassy < >
To: Kazi Azizul Huq
Subject: Palestine Embassy, Dhaka

Dear Mr. Huq

with my best regards, I would like to bring to your kind notice


1- Palestine Embassy in Dhaka represent all of the Palestinian people headed by their legitimate Democratically elected President H. E. Mr. Mahmoud Abbas and further more the Embassy has nothing to do with any group Fateh or Hamas, since it extend help for any Palestinian.


2- The PA works under the umbrella of PLO which represented here at Bangladesh by Palestine Embassy.


3- when we send you files, we stand by it without fear of Mr. Rabi or any other criminal Jews you are intend to establish talk with them, do not you understand from their reply that they consider you as Muslim stupid who listen to them, do you know that Mr. Rabi is responsible for killing hundreds of Palestinians women, Children and old people through helping the killers of Israel Govt.


4- Mr. Huq you should know that Mr. Rabi represent those Jews who raped Musa Alihe assalm’s sister and tried to kill him they are the same people who tried to kill our Profit Mohammad Peace be upon him


5- be sure that if a wild, like lion or tiger change their nature, then Mr. Rabi will do the same, and will never do as long as Israel occupy Palestine.

6- The only solution is to send back the alien Jews to their countries out of Palestine, and allow the Palestinians at Diaspora to return to their homes and let them determined their future on their occupied soil, things which I challenged Mr. Rabi and who he represent to do.

Faik Hamza
Palestine Embassy


----------------------------------------

1 August 2007 from Kazi Azizul Huq to Palestine Embassy

Date: Wed, 01 Aug 2007 11:52:10 +0600
To: "Palestine Embassy, Dhaka" < >, < >
From: Kazi Azizul Huq
Subject: Re: Palestine Embassy, Dhaka



In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

Dhaka, Wednesday 01 August 2007.

To: H.E. Ambassador, Palestine Embassy, Dhaka.
Att: Mr. Faik Hamza, Counsellor.

Cc: H.E. Dr. Fakhruddin Ahmed, CEO, Gov't of Bangladesh
H.E. Ayatollah Seyed Ali Khamenei, Rahbar, IR Iran.
H.E. King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz, KSA.
H.E. Prime Minister Euhud Olmert, Isreal.
H.E. King Abdullah II, Jordan
H.E. Secretary General, OIC, Jeddah.
H.E. Secretary General, United Nations, New York.
H.E. Secretary, Department of State, Washington D.C.
Foreign Secretary, GoB, Dhaka.
H.E. Ambassador of KSA, Dhaka.
Cultural Counsellor, Embassy of IR Iran, Dhaka.
Cultural Counsellor, Pakistan High Commission, Dhaka.
H.E. Chief Rabbi David Rosen KCSG,

Re: Mail dated 1 August 2007 from Palestine Embassy, Dhaka.

Excellency,
Assalamu Alaikum.

We acknowledge receipt of your above ref mail.
Expression of your anger is human and natural from the representative of a nation wiped out from their legitimate homeland and made stateless. But your comments are not indicative of righteousness, piety and any practical solution.

One can not solve problems by blaming others. We ethnic Muslims are stabbing each other on the back. We ethnic Muslims have deviated from the Path of Piety & Righteousness and have chosen to ignore Divine Scripture, Prophetic Mission and Human Experience. Our Iranian revolutionaries talked so much about the Divine Mission of the United Ummah. But in practice they welcomed US invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Faith and Righteousness is more important today than religious ethnicity. Our Holy Prophet (Sallallahoalaihissalam) taught us not to blame the son for the offence of father. It is not correct to blame all Jews for the wrongs of a few Jew in earlier times. Is it piety for any Muslim to call the Jews sons of pigs and apes? Is it the teaching of our Holy Prophet (SM)?

Our Holy Prophet (Sm) migrated from Makkah to Yathrib (Medina) on the invitation and consent of those most of who were friendly Jews and Pagans. At that time there were less than 500 Muslims in Yathrib (Medina) while the population of Yathrib (Medina) was nearly 10,000 - about fifty percent Jews and fifty percent Pagans. Those majority Jews and Pagans agreed Hazrat Muhammad ibn Abdullah (Sm) to become the political leader and administrator of the City State of Medina and Holy Prophet (Sm) guaranteed their rights and status by Medina Charter which called all citizens of Medina irrespective of religion as "Ummah". On the other hand, Holy Prophet (Sm)'s own relatives and tribe in Makkah were called "Kafir" not because they were idol-worshippers but because they were enemies.

By the Grace of Almighty Allah, though we are apparently weak and poor yet we are steadfast under Guidance & Blessings of Allah and spiritual support of the Holy Prophets and righteous saints (Blessings of Allah be upon them all).

We need the support of principled God fearing people irrespective of their ethnic or religious identities. We need the support of Vatican and other non-materialist believer Christians. We need the support of the Monotheist Jewish Clergies who have been holding important heritage of Divine Scriptures and Missions of Prophets of Allah (Blessings of Allah be upon them all). We need the support of non-materialist believer God-fearing Hindus who have been holding important heritage of Divine Scriptures and Missions of Prophets of Allah (Blessings of Allah be upon them all). We need to understand that the vested interests of elitist agnostics and atheists of Europe led by British administration is the prime enemy of Faith, Righteousness and Justice in the world. We need initial unity of Iran-Taleban-GCC. We need unity of HAMAS, Fatah and other important factions. We are already in the midst of the Third World War. All God fearing righteous people irrespective of ethnic religious identity have to come closer and work together to fulfill Divine Will. Our anger is not going to solve our problem. We need to be God fearing, wise and righteously active.

While we appreciate your feelings, we can not but differ with your perception and judgment. May Allah Bless us all with Faith, Peace and Justice.

Maassalam.

Sincerely yours,

Kazi Aziz

Kazi Azizul Huq (ibn Abdulhuq ibn Izzatullah ibn Abdulhamid)
International Affairs Secretary, Bangladesh Khelafat Andolon (BKA)
Team Leader, Human Rights Forum (HRF); Founder Convener, CIRB-Hezbollah.

------------------------


2 August 2007 from Palestine Embassy to Kazi Azizul Huq

Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2007 00:13:52 +1100
From: Palestine Embassy < >
To: Kazi Azizul Huq
Subject: RE: Palestine Embassy, Dhaka
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Aug 2007 13:13:52.0563 (UTC) FILETIME=[CE7B5030:01C7D43D]

Dear Mr. Huq

I did not express my anger, but the fact which you do not like about the Embassy represents all the Palestinian, you should understand that H E. Abbas is the president of all Palestinian but not a group as u tried to make Mr. Rabbi Understand.

Now we do really know the glorious history of our Islam, and if you did see only the Jews there who opened home for our prophet peace be upon him, then I suggest you go back to the history of those Jews who betrayed each and every agreement our profit sign with them.

not only that but our holy Book the Kuran have enough evidence about the nature of Jews and I do not think that some body like you could term the KURAN as PAST.

I stand by my statement the only solution is let the Jews out of my home and allow me back there.

For you Mr. Huq after all that’s Palestine which occupied by the Jews but not Bangladesh

Faik Hamza
Palestine Embassy

--------------------------------------

2 August 2007 from Kazi Azizul Huq to Palestine Embassy

Date: Thu, 02 Aug 2007 19:10:14 +0600
To: "H.E. King Abdulllah Ibn Abdulaziz Al Saud" < >,
"H.E. King Abdullah II, Jordan"< >,
From: Kazi Azizul Huq <>
Subject: Response to your mail of 02 Aug.3007
Cc: "H.E.Prince Saud Al-Faisal" < >

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent the Merciful.

Dhaka, Thursday, August 02, 2007.

To: H.E. Ambassador, Palestine Embassy, Dhaka.
Att: Mr. Faik Hamza, Counsellor.

Cc: H.E. Dr. Fakhruddin Ahmed, CEO, Gov't of Bangladesh
H.E. Ayatollah Seyed Ali Khamenei, Rahbar, IR Iran.
H.E. King Abdullah bin Abdulaziz, KSA.
H.E. Prime Minister Euhud Olmert, Isreal.
H.E. King Abdullah II, Jordan
H.E. Secretary General, OIC, Jeddah.
H.E. Secretary General, United Nations, New York.
H.E. Secretary, Department of State, Washington D.C.
Foreign Secretary, GoB, Dhaka.
H.E. Ambassador of KSA, Dhaka.
Cultural Counsellor, Embassy of IR Iran, Dhaka.
Cultural Counsellor, Pakistan High Commission, Dhaka.
H.E.Chief Rabbi David Rosen KCSG, International Director of Interreligious
Affairs, AJC.and President, the International Jewish Committee for
Interreligious Consultations (IJCIC).

Excellency,
Assalamu Alaikum.

1. We hope Palestinian Embassy will represent the whole Palestinian Nation (including HAMAS) instead of Mr. Abbas only who represents an unpopular faction who are largely responsible for most of the undesirable fratricidal crimes in Gaza until HAMAS took over its control.

2. There are both believers and unbelievers (atheists /agnostics) in almost all the ethnic religious communities of the Books including Muslims, Christians, Jews and Hindus. Almighty Allah has promised that irrespective of religious ethnicity whoever believe in Allah and the Last Day and work righteousness shall have their reward with their Lord.

For your information and study I refer following verses of the Holy Quran.

Almighty Allah Says in the Holy Quran:

QUOTE
Surat No.2 Al Baqarah, Verse No.62
"Those who believe and those who follow the Jewish and the Christians and the Sabeins, any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve."

Surat No.5 Al Maaida, Verses No.44, 45, 46, 47, 48:-

Verses No.44
It was I who revealed The Torah: therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the Prophets who bowed to Allah's Will, by the Rabbis and the Doctors of Law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's Book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear Me, and sell not My Signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by what Allah hath revealed, they are Unbelievers.

Verses No.45
We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remit the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by what Allah hath revealed, they are wrong-doers.

Verses No.46
And in their footsteps I sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming The Torah that had come before him: I sent him The Gospel: therein was guidance and light; And confirmation of the Torah that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.

Verses No.47
Let the people of The Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by what Allah hath revealed, they are those who rebel.

Verses No.48
To thee I sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it. and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have I prescribed a Law and an Open Way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single People, but to test you what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of matters in which you dispute.
UNQUOTE

3. While we respect your emotions, we do not accept your use of scurrilous language - which is prohibited in our religion. We should compete with others in good deeds, not in sins and bad deeds.

4. Arab leaders and Muslim fighters against Turkey's Muslim ruler were no less responsible for the creation of the State of Israel after the First World War. And it was the failure of the Arabs and the Muslims that Israel could expand beyond her 1948 borders. May be it was the Divine Punishment for fighting against Turkey's Muslim ruler.

Therefore, now we have to find out a practical solution without communal bias.

May Almighty Allah Forgive us all and Bless us with success in the Hereafter as well as in this world. May Allah Bless us with Faith, Peace and Justice for all.

Maassalam.

Sincerely yours

Kazi Aziz

Kazi Azizul Huq (ibn Abdulhuq ibn Izzatullah ibn Abdulhamid)
International Affairs Secretary, Bangladesh Khelafat Andolon (BKA)
Team Leader, Human Rights Forum (HRF)
Founder Convener, CIRB-Hezbollah

-----------------------------------

3 August 2007 from Kazi Azizul Huq to Chief Rabbi David Rosen

Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 5:04 AM
From: Kazi Azizul Huq [ ]
To: H.E. Chief Rabbi David Rosen;
Cc: H.E. Ambassador of Palestine; ........
Subject: Copy of Reply to Palestine Embassy's mail Dtd. 02 Aug.3007

In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

To: H.E.Chief Rabbi David Rosen KCSG
International Director of Interreligious Affairs, AJC.
President, the International Jewish Committee for Interreligious
Consultations (IJCIC).

Re: MUSLIM-JEWS DIALOGUE
Forwarding Copy of Selected Correspondences between 16 April to 02 August 2007

Cc: Selected Concerned Gov'ts, Authorities, Organizations, Personalities.

Excellency,
Assalamu Alaikum.

We are forwarding to your excellency selected correspondence from April 16 to August 02, 2007.

Kindly make a review and comments for moving forward.

We invoke Blessings of One Omnipotent Merciful Allah for peaceful resolution of the conflicts and Justice for all.

With best regards.
Sincerely
Kazi Aziz

Kazi Azizul Huq (ibn Abdulhuq ibn Izzatullah ibn Abdulhamid)
International Affairs Secretary, Bangladesh Khelafat Andolon (BKA)
Team Leader, Human Rights Forum (HRF)
Founder Convener, CIRB-Hezbollah

-----

3 August 2007 from Chief Rabbi David Rosen to Kazi Azizul Huq
Date: Fri, 03 Aug 2007 11:28:03 +0300
From: Sharon Rosen <>
Subject: Response in keeping with your request for comment
To: 'Kazi Azizul Huq' <>
Cc: "'H.E. Ambassador of Palestine'" < >,...

Your Excellency,

Allow me to express my admiration for the manner in which you have addressed the issues that have been raised in this correspondence. Naturally there will be matters upon which we disagree, but I believe that the integrity and desire for honest enquiry and discussion that you demonstrate, reflect the most noble values of Islam. If we were all to employ these qualities in our relations with one another, we would be able to resolve all conflicts. Insh'Allah, your example will inspire others in all our communities to follow this path.

In response to Your Excellency's request for my comments on the correspondence below; other than the above, I respond from my own Tradition as follows:-

Judaism teaches that all human and dignity are sacrosanct and accordingly murder of any human being is the most heinous of crimes (Genesis 8v.6)

Moreover any act of intentional disrespect to another, let alone murder, is an assault against the Almighty Himself.( Midrash Genesis Rabbah 24,8;see also Sifri on Leviticus 19v.18)

Judaism teaches us that the essential Divine Attributes of Mercy and Justice oblige us to behave accordingly (Exodus 34 v.6,7; Midrash Canticles Rabbah,3)

It teaches that the goal of Torah (the Divine revelation to Moses) is Peace (Talmud Gittin 50b and 61a; see Maimonides' Code, Hilchot Melachim (Laws of Kings), 10:12) and that murder,theft and lying towards non-Jews are even worse than doing so to Jews, because they involve an additional desecration of the Divine Name (Seder Eliahu Rabbah; Sefer Mitzvoth Gadol, 167d).

Judaism teaches that all the pious/righteous of the nations of the world have their portion in the World to Come, i.e. share in Paradise ( see Maimonides' Code, Hilchot Teshuvah (Laws of Repentance), 3:5, based on the Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin.)

This applies especially to pious/righteous Muslims, as Judaism recognizes Islam as pure ethical monotheism (e.g. Maimonides, Responsa No. 448; Rabbi Menachem Hameiri, Bet Habechirah, Avodah Zarah; Netanel Ibn Fayummi "Bustan al-Oukoul" )

I conclude by stating the conviction of the overwhelming majority of believing religious/observant Jews, that the establishment of the State of Israel is a demonstration of the Almighty All-Compassionate's fidelity to His promise (Exodus 6v.4; Leviticus 26 v.42,45; Deuteronomy 30v.3-5) the hope for which has been sustained by the vision of the ancient Prophets concerning the reestablishment and revivification of the life of the People of Israel in that land.

Jews have always lived in the Holy Land, even when Christian forces (such as the Byzantines and the Crusaders) kept Jews out of Jerusalem (Of course the situation was very different and very much better, under Islam.) The State of Israel is simply a political mechanism to enable us to maintain in security and prosperity, our collective bond with the land of our ancestors, in keeping with the Divine mandate.

As I have indicated to His Excellency, this could have been achieved in a peaceful and productive way for all the inhabitants of this region (as witnessed in the joint statement signed by the Emir Faisel and Dr.Weizman in 1919.) It is a tragedy for all, that conflict ensued; and while there were, have been and still are, victims on all sides, undoubtedly the Palestinians have been the greatest victims of this and their plight has been widely exploited, not least of all within the Arab world itself. However we must work to bring an end to conflict; live in peace with one another; establish a sovereign Palestinian state living peacefully alongside the State of Israel; and find the way to compensate those Palestinians whose loss can not be restored.

May the Most Merciful enlighten us to follow this path in accordance with His paths of Peace, Justice, Mercy and Love for all,
Yours Faithfully,

David Rosen

Chief Rabbi David Rosen, KCSG
International Director of Interreligious Affairs, American Jewish Committee (AJC)
Chair, the International Jewish Committee for Interreligious Consultations (IJCIC),
tel:+972-2-6255281 fax:+972-2-6256527